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Brakes at Halette

new 7/30/01


I wasn't look for it at the Convention, but in this picture, it looks like the pie tins are still attached behind the rotors.

At two previous tracks, the instructors recommended removing these to get more cooling, plus it looks better with them off. All it takes is a hammer/chisel for the rivets on the fronts, and a small wrench for the
rears.

Ron Porter
Lake Orion, MI
'99 black 33K


Where can I get front and/or rear brake pad shims? The only place I have seen thus far is kragen. But they donít stock the three sizes they show to fit the 96 Taurus:
DS8000
DS8114
DS8123
they have to be special ordered, does anyone know which one to get so I donít have to order all three and then return the wrong ones? In addition, where else can I go to get shims? I know some front brake pads come with shims already "glued" to them.
thanks,
Louie

Louie,



I believe that the Ford OEM pads are better than the Motorcraft value pads. Paul Nimz actually told me that and there is a possibility that the compounds are different. I just had to change my Ford OEM pads because they were worn down too much. The Ford pads had what looked like a separate shim. I replaced the front pads temporarily with the Albany semi-metallic pads form AutoZone, they cost me 20 bucks. The Albany pads came with a shim attached, I also recently did a brake job on my Dad's sable with Bendix Titanium Metallic pads and they came with shims that you had to attach yourself. I have had great luck with brake jobs and pad compounds in that they have all been quiet. I am looking to upgrade to the Carbotech pads in the front pretty soon, I'm not sure if they some with shims or not.

Chris A
99 SF


IMNSHO, pad shims are crap. My car had them from the factory. My brakes squealed like hell. Ford, the dealer anyway, said "All the brakes do it, it's normal, since they got rid of the asbestos". Squealing is caused by a vibration between the pad and the caliper, not the pad and the rotor. Whenever I do a brake job I use Permatex Disc Brake Quiet or something similar. It comes in an aerosol can and is sprayed on the backing plate of the pad. It is tacky and sticks the pad to the caliper. First I sprayed the shims with DBQ and reassembled them. They still squealed. Next I took the shims out, threw them away, and just sprayed the pads and reassembled them. Problem solved. Buy a can of Disc Brake Quiet for $5-6 and be done with it. One can will last for many brake jobs. The tube of goo that comes with some pads is also crap, IMNSHO. Throw it away.

Glen Murdock
Port Lavaca,TX
97 PG 66k
89 CR 127k


 

Ford pads come with shims.

Paul Nimz
'97 TR
'93 EG mtx


 

Yep, the Permatex stuff works great.

Ron Porter
Lake Orion, MI
'99 black 33K


 

The Motorcraft Value pads are Organic. I have a brand new set sitting in my garage. I ordered them and didn't know they were organic till I got them. Now they are for emergency use only.


Bob Fijal
97
Missouri


 

Nathan, my brother just changed out my rear brake pads and rotors. We used Raybestos brand pads from PepBoys. It took him about 1-1/2 hours from start to finish, including clean up. You must have one of those tools to do the job because you have to compress the piston and turn it at the same time, and you can only turn it a little each time. That's the part that's the PITA. Check out the boot to be sure it's not ripped or torn around the caliper pin. Then check the caliper pin to make sure it moves freely. My boot was ripped, and water had gotten in it and rusted.


Holly Bailey (Tulsa Shogirl)
96 Medium Willow Green SHO


 

This is absolutely true. You must have the Rear Caliper Piston Adjuster just to make things a little bit easier to compress the piston back into place. You can use a long-nose pliers but make sure you have some first aid kit on hand to treat your wounds.

Rene Carlos Cruz
98 Silver Frost SHO
K & N panel filter
PIAA 9007s
Police Interceptor Club
Bendix Titanium Metallic Front Pads
Sunrise Red Colored Brake Calipers


 

hmmm.. wonder if Midas uses those pads?? My Midas pads SUCK.. fade to nothing as well. Well.. actually it would take 2 stops from 60 or 1 stop from 90. Or.. I could just be in traffic for an hour w/ 15 mph type of shit and they'll fade too!!! O well. I'd be afraid to drive the car hard on a closed circuit course w/ these pads.

Ryan S.
Pittsburgh, PA
97 TR
Porterized w/ K&N panel
Dynomax Thrush Turbo Mufflers
SARC Switch
Xenon Remote Control Driving Lights


 

Guys, I just did a front pad swap on my 99 with the Albany pads from AutoZone. My front Ford pads were worn to about 3mm in a little more than 15k, actually the pass. side pads were worn to less than 3mm. I went to AutoZone and got Albany brand pads for 19.99 with a lifetime warranty which I won't be using. These pads suck! After the first 60mph to 5mph pad bedding stop they fade to nothing, the pedal went right to the floor. I need to order the Carbotech Street F's and get rid of these things. I guess for 20 bucks they are not bad but they are for sure not a performance pad.
Chris A
99 SF

 

the pedal "went to the floor????", I did not think anything except air in lines or boiling fluid or bad m/cyl. would cause that

James Jensen


 

Its the pads they do not modulate very well. I bled the brakes the other day with Valvoline Syntec Dot3/4 fluid.

 

Did you replace the rotors or have them turned? Though I agree that the Albany pads do suck (I just took them off my car 2 days ago and went to the SHO Shop Carbon Metallics), no pad will stand up to bedding stop right after install and especially if the rotors are glazed. They really should be driven lightly for the first couple of days then bedded.

 

Something is wrong or your drive like a maniac <g> if you only got 15k to a set of Ford pads. I get about 40k with them and no fading. Make sure you have the Ford pads not the Motorcraft.

Paul Nimz
'97 TR
'93 EG mtx


 

 

I found the same with the Albanys. When I bed them a couple of weeks ago, they were weak after the first few stops (and smoked like I couldn't believe). The pedal was soft with the Albanys, even after rebleeding after the bedding process.

At Hallett, they were GONE after two sessions (15-16 laps). The outer pass. and inner drivers had nothing left, the others were 25% left. I installed a set of 75% Ford pads, which lasted fine through 2.5 more sessions. The pedal feel is also noticeably firmer, on the track and the street.

I'll replace the Albanys under the warranty, and maybe put them in for the winter after racing season, but they are light-duty pads. I tried a magnet, and they are a full organic pad, as far as I can see. I believe I'll go with the Carbotech Fs for Summit Point next year.

Ron Porter

Lake Orion, MI

'99 black 33K


 

The Valvoline did well at the track, I'm going to stay with it. In fact, a great number of folks I talked to are using it, and there was only one case (that I know of) of boiled fluid at Hallett. This was by someone who was still running old fluid.....I guess he didn't have time to flush the system after working on that hood!!!

Ron Porter

Lake Orion, MI

'99 black 33K

Back to the Hallet Racing Track at the Convention. Ron Porter had a new set of Auto Zone Albany pads on his 99. After the second race they were toast...down to metal. I gave Mark Hlady a used set of Raybestos PG Plus pads with about 4,000 miles on them. They lasted him through Hallet but were worn down real bad, causing him to need replacements for his trip home. Mike Holhut needed new pads and rotors too after Hallet. I'm not sure what kind of pads he had on his car but the rotors were Bendix and needed changing. Both Mike and Mark got new pads from Auto Zone for the trip home. Ron got a set from a friend who had an extra (used) set. Kirk Duchett had Carbothch pads on his car and they held up good but he boiled his fluid, even turning his white calipers brown. Kirk, Mike, and Mark all had to flush their brake fluid. Kenny and Glen Murdock both ran in the touring group and weren't as aggressive with their cars so there brakes held up good. Besides, Glen has the Cobra brakes on his front and the front 96-99 SHO brakes on the rear so if anyone wasn't going to have problems, it would be Glen. He will have to tell you how he did it. All-in-all the Auto Zone Albany pads are ok for everyday driving as long as you don't do anything aggressive. I will also put the Raybestos PG Plus (ceramic) pads in with the Albany's. For aggressive driving and braking it seems
Carbotech is the way to go. Oh yea, forgot to mention one person we got to meet. He drove up on two nights of the convention because he had to work. Carter ( Cfuji) is one great guy and we were all glad to get to know him. The GEN III's are starting to gain acceptance among the other SHO owners. I think the GEN III's gained a lot of respect at Hallet. Good drivers and good cars can do that.


Bob Fijal


 

I wasn't as aggressive?? I treated my car like I hated her, and spent quite a bit of time pushing very hard on the brakes. :) Granted, I didn't completely lose my brakes like Kirk or Shannon, but I need to bleed them quite badly! Had a few scary moments on the way home...

Kenny


 

I think we were plenty aggressive. Some in the touring were doing just that, but I was running my car for all she was worth, especially after the instructor showed me how to run the track. ;-) I ran four sessions. The only brake problem I noticed was some shaking in the front on hard application in the last session. It must have been heat related as it doesn't do it now. I have no idea what brand pads are on the front. They came with the calipers. I don't abuse my brakes normally, but I do give them a work out. These pads have been on the car for 30+K miles and were about half worn before Hallett. I haven't checked them again. My rear pads are Albany metallic and have about 20K on them. Plenty of pad left. My brake fluid was 2 weeks old. No problem there. All in all, my brakes did very well.

Glen Murdock
Port Lavaca,TX
97 PG 66k
89 CR 127k

This is a dumb question, but how do you know whether your brake fluid has boiled or not?


It turns black and your brakes don't work due to air in the system. The fluid we drained out of the three Gen 3s was as black as Coke.

Paul Nimz
'97 TR
'93 EG mtx


Glad to see you all making it back in one piece.

So you would say 13 inch rotors and dual pistons calipers and crossed drilled rotors, with steel braided lines might have helped? Paul email me off list please with curious about the extra oil cooler set up :)

Mac
98 SHO


Maybe if you do a lot of track events, but not worth it otherwise. The SS braided lines appear to be a waste of money for a street machine, even one that sees a lot of track work.

Good pads, rotors, and FRESH brake fluid will do fine for cars running street tires.

BTW, Tom Wallenhorst (the guy who did the 10-minute front brake job on my car) has Cobra calipers on his '93 ATX, but he also has made a caliper bracket that will adapt the two-piston Cobra calipers to the SHO rotors and let you keep the 16" wheels. If I did more than one track event a year I would really consider this, as you then have a wide range of pads that will fit it. They look good and weigh less, also.

Ron Porter
Lake Orion, MI
'99 black 33K


I never noticed this before, since I tend to not get right out of the car to look at the brakes when I have been driving aggressively but, last night I was goofing around on a state highway with a friend of mine in his 328i. After a 110MPH - 0 stop he nearly freaked when he looked over at my car! My front brakes were smoking, and I got out and looked and my rotors were BRIGHT orange! You could feel the heat from 5 feet away!! When I say bright orange I mean, they were red hot and glowing!! I thought the front tires were going to explode. I got back in and continued driving and they would fade a little but still stopped okay.

This the first time I have ever noticed this before. I assume I need to flush my fluid after this, but how do I get all of it out?

Are the rotors shot now? I just had these installed a week ago. I drove around all day today and the only thing I noticed is that the pedal is not quite as firm as it was before. Air in the lines, I am guessing.

Richard Moore
99 SHO Black


Why would you have to flush your fluid though? I mean.. wasn't the fluid obviously doing its job and putting the pad to the rotor very nicely causing it to overheat? Not sure how the fluid would be involved here? I dunno. Fluid has nothing to do w/ the rotor itself I do know.

Ryan S.
Pittsburgh, PA
97 TR
Porterized w/ K&N panel
Dynomax Thrush Turbo Mufflers
SARC Switch
Xenon Remote Control Driving Lights

It's not a bad idea, in fact I may do it again since I have a quart of Valvoline left. If there was any moisture in the fluid, it would have boiled, so Richard probably should do it just to be safe (if he hasn't had new fluid in six months or more).

Ron Porter

Lake Orion, MI

'99 black 33K


I would do it just to be safe. Dot 3 Fluid has a boiling point of about 350deg F, Dot 4 is 450 deg f and dot 5 is 550 deg f. DO not think you can use dot 5 in anything except a car that calls for it. Dot 4 should not cause any problems in these cars. used it in all my other vehicles wit h no problems. the Last cavalier had 4wheel abs albeit drums on the back and every two years it was flushed. Brake fluid is hydroscopic by nature {absorbs moisture easily} and older brake fluid tends to have a lower boiling point.

If you guys were going for bragging rights at the convention then the fluid temp due to the friction would have been high. Anyone with old Dot 3 would have been pushing. If in doubt most reputable brake service places should have a little hand held unit that they can put in the Master cylinder and measure the boiling point for you.

Clare Allenby
96 TR w/Graphite Cloth Interior
35% Window Tint
Chrome Explorer V8 Badges
P225/55/16 94V Yokohama Avid V4
Cherry Bomb Turbo II Mufflers
London, ON


With all this talk of brakes, I got to thinking that I should flush and fill my brake fluid. I donít recall seeing detailed instructions on V8SHO.com. Does anyone have a clear step by step set of instructions for doing this?

George

96 ES


I use a power bleeder on my compressor, and have doe the "pump the pedal" routine that takes two people, but I found the Gravity Bleed method from an old Porsche list post. I will paste it in below. BTW, I forgot what GBSG means. I have never used this method, but it seems to work fine, and can be done by one person.

Ron Porter

Lake Orion, MI

'99 black 33K


Not sure if it has been posted, the method I use is as follows.

1. Get 4 lengths of clear plastic tubing, about 5 feet long, of a diameter that fits snugly over your bleed screws. Note for brakes with two bleed screws, such as my Turbo brakes, you may want to build a "Y" to connect both at once, or perhaps have two lengths of tubing per caliper.

2. Connect the tubing to the brake bleeds, and hang them vertically, with one end on the bleed and the other end well above the height of the master cylinder. I masking tape them to the garage door ramps and to miscellaneous and sundry stuff hanging down from my ceiling.

3. Open all the bleed valves on all brakes. Brake fluid will move through the system, filling up those tubes until they reach the same vertical height as the master cylinder reservoir.

4. Go to each corner, starting with the one furthest away, and moving to the closest caliper (to the M/C that is) and lower the open end of the tubing below the level of the master cylinder. Fluid will drain out, just make sure that your M/C reservoir has fluid in it. Nice thing is that if you start to run low in the reservoir, you just raise the open end of the tube you are working with above the reservoir height (fluid flow stops) and top up the reservoir at your leisure. Intention on this step is to get enough fluid through the system so that any bubbles trapped (or old fluid) in the lines moves out through the bleed.

5. With the tubing hung up again (i.e. no draining going on) get in the car and gently move the master cylinder a couple of times, careful on the amount of travel you use, considering the posts on M/C roughness and seal damage. I tend to have long tubes, like 4 feet above the brake calipers, so there is no risk of the master cylinder pumping pushing fluid out the top....if your tubing is too short, you *may* have some coming out of the top. Objective here is to dislodge any stray bubbles in the calipers.

6. Indulge your favorite perversion.....hammer calipers with anything up to a 2lb BFH, assume the lotus position, go for a walk whatever. Give the bubbles time to move on out of the calipers. Repeat step 4 and 5 as the Spirit moves you...take your time. I personally leave the thing open overnight (silicone fluid...no water absorption in my case), but there will be those who suggest that you don't want to leave the system open too long (confuses me a little as the M/C reservoir has air in it etc. etc.).

7. Obviously keep your eyes open, check for bubbles in the tubing, make sure that only clear (i.e. bubble free) fluid is near the caliper bleed screws.

8. Did I say indulge in whatever amuses you while you wait?

9. Close all the bleeds, top up the M/C, replace all the caps and stuff.

10. Drive away.

Then you can join the GBSG as a full fledged member....you are then qualified to pass explanatory emails to anyone who's initials have an "A" or a "D" in them and/or who are thick as a post, and get totally anally retentive in many other ways. Your next step in your learning exercises will be to repaint your car to concurs standard in your garage using only a garden hose, bucket and sandpaper. :-) :-)

Hope this helps

Dennis Kalma

'75 911S with Kremer 3.2

Founding Member 990415-1004


I priced rotors and pads on porterfields site and for all four wheels it was $529.00 I'd say a decent price for high performance parts.

Paul Nimz
'97 TR
'93 EG mtx
http://www.porterfield-brakes.com/


For the record, I had the dealer turn my rotors on the car and clean the hub surfaces. The result was after 5000 miles I had the worst set of warped front brake rotors I have ever encountered. I realize that it was the dealers fault and not the procedure, however I am pretty much against letting them work on my car again.

I say DIY and save the money and aggravation. The dealer charged me almost $200 to R&R my pads and turn the rotors on the car. I could have bought two new rotors and pads for that price and done it myself!


Richard Moore
99 SHO Black


I need to replace my rear brakes & rotors, when i put the new rotors on should they be turned, if so should they be done as described above. If I am able to use the old rotors should they also be turned as described above or just turned like old normal rotors? If so, then how can this become a DIY?


Have them turned on the car and then replace the pads myself?? I donít want to pay someone to do my brakes but of course i would like them done properly...
>
Thanks!
Louie O.
96 es


I'd say that's very reasonable, Paul. A few weeks ago my dealer made an unauthorized brake shudder repair in cutting the front rotors on the car &
replacing the pads. The short story is that they finally ate the $181.00
RO.
Bill H.


How do you think their pads compare to the Carbotech pads, what about their rotors?

CPA
99 SF


I have no idea of the quality of their products. They come recommended by a Gen 2 person with the '96 brake upgrade.

Paul Nimz
'97 TR
'93 EG mtx


Just a note, at almost every convention we have some type of driving event that will give you a chance to play with your car. For this reason car preparation for the convention needs to involve more than a rinse and wax job. Factory brake pads if you have a lot of meat left on them should work. Carbotech "Street F" Pad are know to work very well and last a long time in spite of track use. I never tried Porterfield pads but if Paul Nimz recommends them they have to be worth while. 

Any of the other pad members have tried just don't hold up on the track. Next year is Summit Point race track which is located on a state line. You miss turn a turn you and slide all the way into another state.  ;-)  Come to the convention, but come prepared! Carbotech pads will last not only a few years but several years each with their own convention. In the long run I think they cost less because they last so long.

As our cars age, if you haven't bleed your brakes yet you may want to flush out the old fluid and bleed them for the next convention. Old brake fluid has moisture in it and can boil at a much lower temperature than fresh fluid.

Buford


For next years conventioneers = Take this advice, SHO up with new brake fluid, Pads X-2. And donít bother painting your calipers or pads to make it look pretty.

All the V8ís except for 2 totally lost their brakes in one way or another, I know you say ďbut my car is like newĒ So didnít the 9 of us doing complete brake jobs in the Host garage.

 Kirk J Doucette
Stormtrooper
97 White V8


I recommend you bring healthy tires. Summit Point has at least 2 long straights with peak speeds 100 mph.

Buford


That's not problem, everyone has tires covered pretty well.....plus there are faster speeds attained during the drive TO the convention!!

The operative words are.............FRESH BRAKE FLUID

Ron Porter
Lake Orion, MI
'99 black 34K


Can't fault that logic. (SEG). As you point out the important difference between 100 mph on the track and on the interstate is the corners.

Fresh brake fluid would be a GREAT idea.

Tim


Ron Porter wrote:

The MTX cars were probably hitting at least 100 in the straights at Hallett, and we were all getting over 100 easily at Road Atlanta, but as you mentioned, most Interstates don't have a 25 mph 90-degree turn at the end! You also need good pads, but if folks stay with the Ford or Carbotech, They'll be fine. I had my doubts about the Albanys after I gassed 'em out a week before the Convention, and my fears were realized when they were GONE after two sessions. After installing a regular set of Ford pads with about 75% pad left, they easily went through 2.5 more sessions, and still look fine.

FWIW, it's very clear how much of a difference that pads can make in the pedal feel when you switch pads at the track as I did. The Ford pads produced a much firmer pedal. I'll probably try a set of Carbotechs next year.

Ron Porter
Lake Orion, MI
'99 black 34K


Ron,
If you have not tried the Carbotech's, then you are in for a big grin session next track day.

Get the Street "F" compound, you don't need the race compound. They will last a long time, and the braking is another real level better than the very good OEM Ford pads on the 96 - up brake setup. I love mine, and they are a bargain price wise when you compare how they last and how they perform. I would rather pay $100+ for one set of Carbotechs than get 10 free replacement off-brand or "carbon metallic" sets through a parts store.

Don Mallinson


I've currently got Bendix Titanium front pads with about 2k on them. they're really good pads right after they get warmed up (a quick stop from 30 mph or so), but they seem to have very little bite when they are cold (if they've had about 5 minutes to cool.) It's very strange since it's the exact opposite of brake fade.. the hotter I heat them up on the first stop, the better they'll perform on each subsequent stop. This is fine for autocrossing, where the brakes stay pretty hot all the time, but when I'm cruising and have to apply the brakes suddenly, the stopping ability leaves something to be desired. I had good luck with these pads on my SLO, they stopped awesome every time, hot or cold.

Now I'm thinking about replacing my pads, and am interested in the Carbotechs.

Where's the cheapest place to get Carbotech Street 'F' pads for the Gen3?

Also, I have fairly new AutoZone rotors, (only 2k on them, not warped). Should I get new ones ($25 each) or would the Carbotechs be fine on the used rotors? Machining them is pointless since the shops around here charges about $40 to do a pair and I could almost buy new ones for that.

thanks for any info,

Nathan
97 SF

 


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