New 7/19/03
I was thrilled an elated with the way our car treated us..
I think I need to bleed/flush the brakes, but otherwise I need no pads or rotors or anything that requires a wrench (except the 11mm I'll need to bleed the brakes).
Keep in mind that both myself and Sarah ran the car (back to back) so the car saw two 15-20 minute sessions separated with one cool down lap and about 3 minutes heat, and we ran 4 heats. Sarah's session was in the novice group so that was a little easier on the car.
Here is what I learned.
26mm RSB and a FSTB make for very good balance overall when running, even with our SARC challenged 99.
I ran with the MAX A/C on.. I did this for two reasons, not only was that damn helmet hot, but whenever the A/C is on it Keeps the cooling fans on high to cool the condenser. It was mentioned at the end of the track day that I would have been dripping water, and this is a valid point I didn't think of or notice. So for drags, I unplugged the clutch for the A/C, and then ran with it selected on for the engine and tranny cooling. This way it drops no water on the track surface, I'll gladly sacrifice some ET for the additional cooling for the POS tranny.
Bendix Titanium Metallic Pads Stop great, Wear Great, and produce VERY LITTLE dust. Of all Gen III's that ran I am fairly confident that we had the least dusting for sure, and our car ran twice the # of laps. The brakes still worked good (not quite great see the bleeding mentioned above) at the end. We ran with the Bendix pads on the front, and Performance Friction's on the rear, both treated me very well.
And our factory rotors are still good.
All that is left is to take issue with Yokohama for the cracking that showed up on the tread of the Drivers front wheel, Turns 1, 3, 4, 6 and 7 were hard on that Left front!
Scott Krietemeyer
99 TG
96 MG
Without sounding critical, let me pose this question:
Say funds are limited so a Gen 3 driver goes with all season tires. Then goes to Black hawk and the tires feather & chunk badly because all season tires are never meant for the track. The owner many the have a ruined set of all season tires that never saw winter.
What I am thinking is, even if you only have one set of rims, get a gummy summer set of block tread tires even if they are inexpensive Nitto or Kumho. Because if you ruin a set of all season tires You may be buying a 2nd set of rubber anyway. (some folks may have to use those extra tires as coffee tables because storage space is not plentiful, so the solution many not work for one & all). I know my summer tires have a HUGE grip advantage on warm roads over my winter tires and they also take abuse much better. (neither feather nor chunk).
While watching Gen 3 drivers race their hearts out on and ruin a set of all season tires I think to my self, if they had a gummy set of summer/track tires the lap times would be how much better and they would have how much more fun?
While watching from corner four I noticed the Gen 3 rear tire tread tended to go up level with the top of the wheel arch; but on the non SARC 99 the wheel arch on the fender was level with the rim. So the non SARC 99 had 4"-5" (height of a side wall) more body roll.
A lot of folks can't wait to lose the SARC struts for performance. I am convinced from what I saw at black hawk that getting rid of SARC would be a mistake from a performance point of view.
I would like to know what brake pads folks used and how they lasted.
What if any aux ATF cooler and how much it helped. I think at least one gen 3 boiled the ATX fluid.
Someone is supposed to send me a jpg of Kirks rear brake pads, I never saw rivets worn flush before.
Most importantly, we had about 25 Gen 3's make the convention. It would have been more if Paul N & Carter did not have bad luck. Doug Lewis choose to trailer a red gen 1 and not bring his gen 3. With a little luck we could have should have had 5-10 more. Nice showing.
Tim
I used a set of Porterfield R-4S compound pads that were bedded and run in for 3 weeks before the convention. They are a great compound and modulate very well when hot; at one measure I had a 575 degree F rotor temp after a cool down; the ATE super blue fluid I was using performed flawlessly. In the rear a used a set of PFCM pads with bypass plugs and had a rotor temp of 410 degrees F. The pads are not that worn and I probably have about 3/4 left up front. I know of one person that used a new set of R-4S pads that were installed the day before Blackhawk and glazed them up. I am one of those people that ran my A/S tires. When all was said and done they did not perform that badly and even though they are slightly feather the ride home was fine. If I could do it again I would have bought a set of summer only tires 4 months before the convention and used those.
I had the GEN III that boiled tranny fluid on the last run of the day. I think that the fluid had been slightly overfilled and that contributed to the overflow condition. Remember that tranny fluid expands greatly when hot. Never the less I was surprised that the fluid overflowed because I am using a 24,000 GVWR B&M cooler. I tend do disagree with Tim on the SARC vs.. non SARC difference. Taking a look at some pictures I just don't see that.
Attached are picture of Kirks rear pads and a set of GEN I front pads that were worn THROUGH the backing plate and ended up burning the caliper and inner fender well.
Christian Andretta
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I was thrilled an elated with the way our cars treated us..
I think I need to bleed/flush the brakes, but otherwise I need no pads or rotors or anything that requires a wrench (except the 11mm I'll need to bleed the brakes).
Keep in mind that both myself and Sarah ran the car (back to back) so the car saw two 15-20 minute sessions separated with one cool down lap and about 3 minutes heat, and we ran 4 heats. Sarah's session was in the novice group so that was a little easier on the car.
Scott Krietemeyer
As a novice, (OT: glad we had a novice group--the training was invaluable and fun!) I learned that when going fast on the straight, you need to make sure you have brakes to stop at the end, because I almost didn't once.
I did flush my brake lines and put in new fluid before the convention, even though part of me thought it was a waste. I'm glad I did and encourage any newcomers to do the same.
If we get to CA next year, I will have new brakes all around as it is almost time to replace the original discs anyway.
Mike Gaunt '99 black
I was talking to Larry, and he said the torque converter on Doug's gen III blew up a few days before the convention. Larry says that with the higher stall speed converter it would rip up the asphalt. Let's hope that Doug can find someone who can build him a reliable high stall converter.
Ian Macoomb
I got my new converter from the place that makes them for FPS ( http://www.suncoastconverters.com/ ) From speaking to Paul Nimz it is not clear to me a higher stall speed is all that desirable.
Tim
Another question, if I may? I like Carbotech brakes, other folks like Porterfield. My understanding is either will last several SEASONS of track use. My experience with carbotech rotors is they wear harder, last longer than OE rotors. I don't understand going to the track with less than half a pad depth or doing new pads track side. I know Kirk enjoys doing brake jobs but wearing pads down through the backing plate is hard on the rotor.
What are all the high performance pad options and how do they compare?
The unobtainable Street F pads, of which I have the last unused set, are good up to 900 degrees.
Tim
RE: Ian
Well yes and no, He forgot to mention that he had someone make him one and it lasted only a few days (sound familiar?) like mine did last year..
Anyway the trans are pretty good if they stay cool, which they don’t. I ran only 1 second slower that the SC cars (someone was there doing some unsanctioned timing) I was 1 sec slower around the track than Josh, which I thought was pretty good, but I beat the car doing so. My tranny temps exceeded the 250 scale on my meter, also for the first time my coolant temp raised in the car.
While beating the car was great fun I too now having another converter issue, I lost lockup in ILL somewhere and did not get it back until somewhere in Indiana when I shut the car off, now its making noise and the lift trick don’t work, but I have a full 5 gears now. Car is ok but I will be dropping the cradle once again and taking the converter to my guys converter builder. A stock converter is ok for normal use, a furnace brazed one is better for some track days and some dragging but its not suitable for constant pounding that these track days do to them. Ones from places like Suncoast and Bulk parts are ok but will not hold up if you punish the car a lot. The AX4N and the Ax4S are not by any means trannys to beat, they will hold for a while but even the “bullet proof” tranys of FPS showed its ugly face again this year with 4 of them spitting fluid all over the track, and one of the FPS cars being the worst.
Doug’s Gen 3 had a higher stall by sun coast and lasted 4 days of “Doug driving”. Most don’t drive that hard on the road all year long even with a track day. For everyday use a high stall on a regular rebuild with just rip the internals apart. I have my converter and a second one going to be made if it works out Ill have a core to start swapping for people. Ian the repair of the stock sleeve will only last so long, so it’s something to think about.
Kirk J Doucette
Scott Kritemeyer ripped his ES 100’s apart on the track, so bad that I will never buy a set of Yokos ever.
Kirk J Doucette
AVS Sports are at least $20 more expensive than ES100 per tire but they have a reputation for holding up extremely well under track use.
The tires look almost the same but I am told the AVS Sports are made MUCH better. The ES are for ricer pretenders.
If Scott tried A008 or AVS Sports he would feel very different about Yokohama tires.
This is my 4th summer on my AVS sports, because of my lard asp the tire wore unevenly and down to a cord on the inside edge where the rim has a small dent.
If anyone with all season tires had AVS Sports or S-03 the may have 3-4 seconds faster a lap. If they had put on Hoosiers or A008 or R1's they may have gained another 2-3 seconds per lap.
I just spoke to Don on the phone and he asked me to make a few points in his name, which is good because I have no track credentials.
Tim
New Conti Extreme Contac's held up nicely, however did rotate them today. Used OEM Pads, and AZ Lifetime rotors, which will be going back next week for new
ones as well as 24000GVW Tranny cooler. After riding with instructor who really dialed me in, had the freakin time of my life. Last session was just the best. Had the lines, had the entries and exits dialed in, did I mention had the black flag for rear windows??? :{
still managed to chew through about 1/2 the pack to catch up with BigDog - then we really had some fun. Gotta do it again soon.
Larry E
97TR
Mods
I didn't pass ANYONE :( But then again I was going easy on the brakes after I realized they really weren't track-worthy.
Kenny
Reminds me of one of the scenes in "Days of Thunder" where Harry has Cole drive 50 laps any way he wants, and then 50 laps Harry's way. They show a dramatization of what the tires supposedly looked like after each session, and Cole's were almost completely torn apart, while Harry's were still looking good. I believe the quote was "His way, my way. My way's 15 seconds faster." Sorry for that flashback. Now, back to the 21st century.
John B
Tim,
As you have probably seen by now, Kirk was in error. Scott has AVS DB 2s on his car, NOT the ES100s. In fact, I now remember asking Scott how he liked those tires, but this was before the track event. The AVS DB is an a/s tire, and Don posted a good observation (that he said he mentioned to you in a phone conversation) about the driver's role in tearing up tires.
As I have told people, and have posted, the ES100s ROCK!!! They are the best tire I have ever used on the track, and have held up better than any other tire I have used on a SHO at the track. I am very impressed with these tires so far. They are summer-only, but I have two sets of slicers.
There are a few other SHO folks who have ES100s who love them. Larry Maletta (sp?) also ran a set and loved them (he was also in the Advanced group), and Mark Nunnally has them on his '92 and loves them.
Don't look at price. The ES100, as well as the Kumho MX (that John Hrinsin ran on the track) are the new breed of silica-compound tires that are not supposed to heat-cycle as they age. Both are priced under $100 for the 16" sizes. John Hrinsin was talking these up when they were first introduced last year.
They are NOT for rice pretenders.
Ron
I remember a younger guy I worked with, the Saturday morning we worked together after his first real "date".
In the same way until recently we had a few track virgins on the list. What can one say? Try a convention you might like it, most people do. Have fun on the track, most people do.
I have been told ES100 are not as robust or sticky as AVS Sports and cautioned that if I like the AVS Sports I may not be happy with the ES100 because even though they ride nicer they are not as quick or sticky on the track.
A bunch of affordable tires like the ES 100 or Kumho MX give near race tire performance at 60% of the cost and folks who may have never looked at them twice may drool on a set in their garage after the convention.
Most folks can't see the $70 per tire improvement for something like a Bridgestone S-03 pole position over a $100 tire like the ES100 or MX but I have had good luck with the high end tires. My AVS Sports were $190 each when I purchased the first set Tire rack sold.
Don is always more tactful than I am, I like his wording better than mine: If you had fun with all season tires, try a sticky high performance summer tire, and if you had fun with a sticky high performance summer tire try a semi - race tire. That is all I am really suggesting.
Tim