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New 8/30/05
It has been 2.5 years since our last (3/03) Consensus Recommendations: http://www.v8sho.com/SHO/ConsensusRecommendation.htm. Then we agreed that an owner should not continue to drive or operate their car after the first sign (noise) from the cam shafts.
It has been 4+ years since the first reports of early cam failures; first reports to us were in summer of 2001. I am thinking that we may have (as a group) learned a little since then and most of the range of opinion has narrowed down and I think we are once again reaching a consensus opinion worth passing on to new guys.
These are the most vital, useful and agreeable facts that we need to pass along to new owners as I see them, your input is treasured and will also be included.
Between 1996 and 1999 Ford made about 22,000 V8SHOs, all with 4 defective cam shafts. Because all 4 cam shafts are defective it is possible, if not highly probable that every V8SHO will experience at least one cam failure if remedial action is not taken.
If you have not taken remedial action the certainty of cam failure is very near 100%. If an owner prevents a cam failure by welding the cost is ~ $800. If an owner catches a cam failure in the very early stages the cost is about the same plus the cost of transporting the car to a cam welder.
The mean time to failure is steadily on the rise, it was once less than 70,000 miles it is now about 90,000 miles. This only indicates that the good have already died young. The fact that a few cams have failed at 195,000 miles should give no comfort to owners with cars with fewer miles. Every car, of any year, with any quantity of miles can fail at anytime if not welded.
If the owner does not catch the noise early valves may hit pistons and the best recourse is a replacement engine. Currently Kirk has rebuilt motors for $2,500 and that is a good deal because the gasket set alone costs ~$1,000 and all the engine bolts are “use one and throw away” and some of the bearings are becoming unavailable.
We once had reason to think that after first noise an owner had about a month or 1,000 miles to affect a repair. Many engines give no warning before failure, some do, but that should NOT be relied on.
Currently we have almost 600 reports of cam failures. The rise of EBay has had an effect on reporting, we suspect the reporting rate is very uneven. We may be getting an increase in % reporting even though the number of failures over time is decreasing. The target demographics of V8SHO owners (older, less web savvy) dictates against a high report rate. Our best guess is that for every 1 cam failure reported to V8SHO another 19 cam failures exist. Of the 22,000 V8SHOs made only a few years ago; only half or less are on the road, and the majority of those still on the road now have welded camshafts.
Because Ford has LONG been out of $13,000 replacement engines, and welding cost only a fraction engine repair, and because failure is otherwise inevitable it is the Official September 2005 V8SHO Cam Failure Consensus Recommendation that all owners who have not yet welded their cams do so ASAP.
Improved durability of Ford replacement cams is yet unproven. So it is the recommendation that all replacement cams also be welded.
Welding cams is not for amateurs or “do it your self” folks. The problems are that excess heat will ruin a cam and weld splatter can ruin an engine, stray currents can fry electronics, and the tear-down and reassembly are time consuming and technically challenging for most dealerships, yet alone shade tree mechanics. During the last 4 years we have found about 25 folks with the skills to repeatedly perform this operation without problems. A few rare individuals have welded their own cams, but several have fried and ruined their cams and most folks who watch a pro perform the operation are well pleased that they let an expert do the job.
During the last few years we have compiled a list of minor things best done when an engine is already half disassembled. http://www.v8sho.com/SHO/CamWeldToDoList.htm It’s all relatively minor and intended to save money and bother in the long run.
Other options:
Welding is best done in the car, by an expert. This is the preferred option.
Pinning has proven far more expensive and time consuming, and than welding.
I have recommended Loctite 294 and Ford has also recommended Loctite 294. http://www.v8sho.com/SHO/LoctiteTSB03141.htm At best Loctite will extend cam life about 10% if applied before any damage occurs. It is not a permanent fix, which is why this group no longer recommends the Loctite treatment.
It is worth reminding folks that joining the class action
lawsuit is free and the best possibility for recovery of loss.
see
http://www.v8sho.com/SHO/NewGuyorRecentCamFailure.htm for details.
Suffering from diminished omnipotence,
Buford
Well, I do understand that it is important to get them welded. problem is, I am more than competent enough to tear it apart and put it back together. I am 30 and have 4 ground up car restorations under my belt. here is the problem.... I have 5 kids and the fiancée works full time and so do I. Weekends are filled with having said 5 kids while fiancée works. I am due for an oil change anyway, maybe I can get a day here soon to actually tear it down and do the welds.
Jason Fontaine
Ignore the fanatics. You've taken the time to understand the problem and know what you need to do in order to avoid an engine failure. At the same time you've prioritized your life and if welding the cams isn't #1 on the list, then BFD. I've never understood the holier than thou fanaticism on this list about cam welding; yep, there's a problem and a fix. Nope, its not the most important thing in life. Get it done when you can. If you're lucky you won't have a problem. If you start to hear failure warning noises, stop driving the car until its fixed. Hopefully you won't have one of the cars that doesn't make noise before failure. In the mean time, enjoy the car that you love and take care of the things that are higher on the list of priorities.
Ryan Dudek
Ryan,
I don't think anyone here is being holier than thou or anyone about this. The point is that people put off the "fix" and we have not one, not two, but DOZENS of instances where people put it off, and now have a very expensive planter shaped like an SHO.
We recommend it be done immediately because there is NO way to tell when it will happen, we only know that the odds are it WILL happen. We also know that most often there are no warning signs or the people ignore them.
When someone puts this off for a night on the town, or maybe getting new tires when the old ones would be OK for a few months then it is a tragedy when the engine goes and they wish they had the car instead of whatever they put it off for.
Yes, there are many people that just plain can't afford it immediately. The point is before they spend money on anything else that isn't life threatening, if the car is IMPORTANT (maybe their only transportation) they should do the fix before any other spending if at all possible.
THAT is the point. And it is just being a good friend and giving VERY good advice. If you have an unwelded V8SHO, fixing the cams should come before almost anything else if you can't afford to lose the car totally.
If you can afford to lose the car, then take your time.
Any other advice is just doing an injustice to the owner.
I am not making any of this up. I talk to people almost weekly about getting the work done, and almost weekly I talk to people that put it off and wish they had taken my advice or the advice offered by V8SHO.com or this group. Doesn't take many of those before I become maybe a tiny bit "holier" than others that say you can put it off, there is no hurry, or there is no need to worry. THERE IS NEED to worry unless the car is disposable.
And frankly saying to wait till you hear the noise and then just stop driving the car is not very good advice. It is MUCH better to plan this out and get it done on YOUR schedule than hope and wait for an unknown failure at probably the worst possible time. Only those that have the SHO as an excess car can afford the wait and see attitude.
Don Mallinson
On 8/30/05, Donald Mallinson <dmall@mwonline.net> wrote: Ryan,
> I don't think anyone here is being holier than thou or anyone about this. The point is that people put off the "fix" and we have not one, not two, but DOZENS of instances where people put it off, and now have a very expensive planter shaped like an SHO.
Absolutely and I would never deny that the car has an inherent design flaw and given time every vehicle may fail. My point is that he knows about it and has made an educated decision based upon fact, including personal situations that not a single one of us is in position to argue, to hold off on welding. Jason is apparently very well aware of the risk and has still chosen this route.
> We recommend it be done Immediately because there is NO way to tell when it will happen, we only know that the odds are it WILL happen. We also know that most often there are no warning signs or the people ignore them.
No, most all cars make noise before failing. I've seen and heard near a dozen vehicles that have come in for weld that were in the middle of failing. People may ignore the warning signs, but they do exist. Again, Mr. Fontaine has educated himself to these matters and made a personal decision.
>When someone puts this off for a night on the town, or maybe getting new tires when the old ones would be OK for a few months then it is a tragedy when the engine goes and they wish they had the car instead of whatever they put it off for.
I'd rather have my family provided for. If that involves rolling the dice, then oh well. School supplies, shoes and clothes for 5 little ones would be more important to me as well. He's already stated that should the car die, he'll get a beater or make do otherwise. He has his contingency plan.
>Yes, there are many people that just plain can't afford it immediately. The point is before they spend money on anything else that isn't life threatening, if the car is IMPORTANT (maybe their only transportation) they should do the fix before any other spending if at all possible.
>THAT is the point. And it is just being a good friend and giving VERY good advice. If you have an unwelded V8SHO, fixing the cams should come before almost anything else if you can't afford to lose the car totally.
Again, he says that the time and money is better spent on his family than the car. I don't disagree with him.
>If you can afford to lose the car, then take your time.
>Any other advice is just doing an injustice to the owner.
Insinuating that a SHO which is not exhibiting signs of impending failure is more important than family needs is doing a much larger injustice to the owner as a person.
> I am not making any of this up. I talk to people almost weekly about getting the work done, and almost weekly I talk to people that put it off and wish they had taken my advice or the advice offered by V8SHO.com or this group. Doesn't take many of those before I become maybe a tiny bit "holier" than others that say you can put it off, there is no hurry, or there is no need to worry. THERE IS NEED to worry unless the car is disposable.
I agree that there is need to worry. I had my SHO's cams welded.
> And frankly saying to wait till you hear the noise and then just stop driving the car is not very good advice. It is MUCH better to plan this out and get it done on YOUR schedule than hope and wait for an unknown failure at probably the worst possible time. Only those that have the SHO as an excess car can afford the wait and see attitude.
Maybe now that your family is long grown and gone, your opinion varies from mine, but if I were in a position where I could either weld the car or give my family the time and care that they need, the car is coming in fourth place every time. Yes, it is better to have the work done before a failure is imminent, if that is a viable option. Otherwise, you make do with what you can. From my understanding, the SHO may not be an excess car, but again, he has a contingency plan should the car fail. In the mean time, I absolutely do not believe that it is the place of this mailing list to badger someone for choosing their family over a 10yr old car.
Ryan Dudek
Basic economic issue….
Look at the worth of the car today. Then if you want to wait until spring and the cams fail in the meantime, the value of the car at that point is far less than the cost of a cam weld by a minimum of $1000.
How lucky do you feel?
Ron Porter